Автор Тема: Приветствие от SantaMonica  (Прочитано 14771 раз)

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #60 : 12 Январь 2011, 19:36:58 »
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In the horizontal Scrubber flow, too, never slows down

Yes, it does slow down, in locations.

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Absorption start to be significant above 1 m.

Depends how much phytoplankton you have. With no skimmer or other mechanical filtration, your water will grow significant phytoplankton, which will block more light. This is compared to light in the main aquarium which must travel 30 or 40 cm and get reduced.

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I grow approximately uniform carpet.

Because you are not growing much. When it starts growing greatly, islands will form.

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We propose to optimize it. For example by not cleaning but just trimming algae to some certain height. For example by not cleaning but just trimming algae to some certain height.

You must clean it. Otherwise the "roots" of the algae will not get light, and will die and let go from the screen.

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Does not matter how long contact with water is. Does not matter how long contact with water is.

Not correct. Algae cannot filter the water if it is not touching the water.

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Only growth rate has importance.

It cannot grow if it is not touching the water.

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Half time contact does not imply lower growth rate

Yes, it does.

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Yes, but you should know that equilibrium concentration is only 0.6 mg / l and is powerful limiting factor for water photosynthetic organisms.

CO2 in the water is never limiting. Iron, PO4, and NO3 are limiting.

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100 W lamp

You would never use a 100 watt lamp. You would use a 23, 33, or 42 watt CFL spiral.

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much smaller capacity pump is already a big plus.

Larger pumps, and more flow through a scrubber, are better because it brings nutrients to the scrubber much faster, and allows for faster filtering. With small pumps, nutrients stay in the aquarium longer before they go through the scrubber. Thus, wide scrubbers are better.

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Ideologically, the option of horizontal Scrubber is very important. It's no secret that small aquariums (up to 100 liters) more than large with a full sump.

Small aquariums can use small horizontal scrubbers, because the bulbs are the same size, and cover the entire screen. Also, small (narrow) horizontal scrubbers, 10 cm wide, do not allow the water to go around growth island... instead the water is forced over the island. If the horizontal is wide (20 to 50 cm), then water goes around the island.

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #61 : 13 Январь 2011, 11:17:22 »
Depends how much phytoplankton you have. With no skimmer or other mechanical filtration, your water will grow significant phytoplankton, which will block more light. This is compared to light in the main aquarium which must travel 30 or 40 cm and get reduced.
Yes, for 30-40 cm it could be significant if water is blooming, but we discuss "several mm-few cm"-range possible in scrubbers.
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You must clean it. Otherwise the "roots" of the algae will not get light, and will die and let go from the screen.
Yes, but the same is true for vertical scrubbers. Light propagation is not depending on scrubber geometry but only amount of algae.
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Not correct. Algae cannot filter the water if it is not touching the water.
Yes, but after a period of not contacting with water algae can absorb more during period of contacting. Algae have internal reserve of nutrients and stop absorption if it is full even being in contact with water. During short periods of out water standing they just grow for its account. They quickly (quicker than being all time under water) absorb nutrients and fill the reserve when water increases. Thus the average absorption should not necessarily be lower.
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It cannot grow if it is not touching the water.
It is not true. Algae have nutrients reserve inside cells and grow for its account.
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Yes, it does.
No, it does not. We should have experimental data upon this question in order to state, preferably from a scientific journal. I have not that. Do you have?
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CO2 in the water is never limiting. Iron, PO4, and NO3 are limiting.
This statement induces only a smile. Dry algae contain more 50% of carbon. How can it be not a limiting factor? Why do you think CO2-system is an almost obligatory element of fresh-water plant tanks?
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You would never use a 100 watt lamp. You would use a 23, 33, or 42 watt CFL spiral.
It does not matter what kind of lamp to use. Only total light flux is essential. Moreover, 100 W was considered as total power of lighting (not single lamp).
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Larger pumps, and more flow through a scrubber, are better because it brings nutrients to the scrubber much faster, and allows for faster filtering. With small pumps, nutrients stay in the aquarium longer before they go through the scrubber.
SantaMonica, you are extremely wrong. I see you have not deep understanding of the processes. Try to analyse water before scrubber and just after. You will see that algae have not time to absorb any significant part of the nutrients from water at proposed by you rate of water flow. Algae have limit of nutrients absorption and higher flow rate absolutely does not mean higher absorption!
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Thus, wide scrubbers are better.
Why not longer? :)
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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #62 : 13 Январь 2011, 19:25:18 »
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Yes, but after a period of not contacting with water algae can absorb more during period of contacting.

The point is that green hair algae absorbs more total nutrients, faster, than brown turf algae. And green hair algae needs to be in water all the time.

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Dry algae contain more 50% of carbon. How can it be not a limiting factor? Why do you think CO2-system is an almost obligatory element of fresh-water plant tanks?

Because there is plenty of CO2 in a non-planted tank. We do not care about planted tanks.

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It does not matter what kind of lamp to use.

It totally does. CFL "spotlights" concentrate all the light in one spot, and over-power that spot, but do not give enough light outside of that spot. CFL "spirals with reflectors" are better, they spread the light out more, but still have a lot of light in the center. T5HO bulbs are the best, because they distribut the light even across the screen, all the way to the edge, without "burning" one spot.

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Try to analyse water before scrubber and just after. You will see that algae have not time to absorb any significant part of the nutrients from water at proposed by you rate of water flow. Algae have limit of nutrients absorption and higher flow rate absolutely does not mean higher absorption!

Yes it does, from experience, and from repeated other users.

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Why not longer?

Wider allow more flow, which processes more water faster.


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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #63 : 14 Январь 2011, 02:08:00 »
The point is that green hair algae absorbs more total nutrients, faster, than brown turf algae. And green hair algae needs to be in water all the time.
In other words you state that green hair algae grows much quicker than brown turf algae at equal conditions? At what conditions? I suppose that growth rate (i.e. nutrients absorption) depends on the particular conditions.
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Because there is plenty of CO2 in a non-planted tank. We do not care about planted tanks.
To this statement I have two objections. First: you stated earlier that water CO2 concentration is in equilibrium with atmosphere. This is only 0.6 mg/l and by no means such water can be considered as "plenty of CO2". Second: a scrubber-equipped tank can not be considered as "non-planted" one.
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It totally does. CFL "spotlights" concentrate all the light in one spot, and over-power that spot, but do not give enough light outside of that spot. CFL "spirals with reflectors" are better, they spread the light out more, but still have a lot of light in the center. T5HO bulbs are the best, because they distribut the light even across the screen, all the way to the edge, without "burning" one spot.
Ok. I agree this argument. I did not take into account importance of homogeneity of illumination. The inhomogeneity can induce isle-type algae growth.
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Yes it does, from experience, and from repeated other users.
It is difficult to object to practice, however, mechanism you involve to explain this phenomenon is nevertheless wrong. Otherwise ripe scrubber being placed in aquarium with, p. e., high nitrates should give on output the water with at significant decrease in nitrate concentration. Try to do this experiment. I doubt you will see any difference.
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Wider allow more flow, which processes more water faster.
If water is almost the same on input and on output of short scrubber then two times wider scrubber is equal to two times longer one.

P.S. Sorry for the violent tone of previous my response.
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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #64 : 14 Январь 2011, 02:27:20 »
 #^27^

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #65 : 15 Январь 2011, 06:18:55 »
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In other words you state that green hair algae grows much quicker than brown turf algae at equal conditions? At what conditions? At what conditions?

Yes. Strong flow, strong light, rough surface.


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This is only 0.6 mg/l and by no means such water can be considered as "plenty of CO2"

It is plenty CO2 for algae. Algae does not even need the CO2... it will use bicarbonate if it needs to, which you replace by adding baking soda.

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a scrubber-equipped tank can not be considered as "non-planted" one

In the hobby of aquariums, "planted" means aquatic plants with roots and leaves. It does not mean algae.

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ripe scrubber being placed in aquarium with, pe, high nitrates should give on output the water with at significant decrease in nitrate concentration. Try to do this experiment. I doubt you will see any difference

The faster the turnover ("flow") is, the more times the water will pass through the scrubber per hour. This gives the algae more nutrients to consume per hour.

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If water is almost the same on input and on output of short scrubber then two times wider scrubber is equal to two times longer one.

No, a scrubber that is 100 cm wide will flow twice as much water as a scrubber 50 cm wide.

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #66 : 15 Январь 2011, 16:51:23 »
Ну, а кто переведёт? Хотя бы основные моменты. Ну, для тех, кто не отличает does от did  ;D.
Не ошибается тот, кто не пробует (это не я сказал, но нравится) !!!

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #67 : 15 Январь 2011, 16:57:34 »
Так вроде понятно все даже мне, хоть я в школе испанский учил..Ботве СО не нужно нафиг, она спокойно себе жрет бикарбонаты и каронаты из воды. Зеленые водоросли прут сильнее других если есть течение по ФАКу, свет по ФАКу и т.д. Течение должно быть мегасильным ибо так водоросли успевают выедать бяку из воды, а при малом потоке не успевают..Широкий скраббер много лучше длинного по той же причине...Короче я чё-то сомневаюсь...Не знаю..Я тут маленько поэкспериментирую прежде чем выводы делать. Что-то мне в этой теории многое не нравится..
« Последнее редактирование: 15 Январь 2011, 17:26:09 от Андрей »
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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #68 : 15 Январь 2011, 22:55:08 »
It is plenty CO2 for algae. Algae does not even need the CO2... it will use bicarbonate if it needs to, which you replace by adding baking soda.
I agree that being water organisms for long time algae are more adapted to low CO2 concentration and have alternative channels of carbon consumption. However these alternative channels are energy-expensive and, yes, demand of much light. It is reasonable to increase CO2 concentration instead of light power to induce algae consume carbon in form of CO2 (energy-chip for them) leaving bicarbonates and carbohydrates for reef.
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In the hobby of aquariums, "planted" means aquatic plants with roots and leaves. It does not mean algae.
It is a question of definition. A key point in our discussion is the carbon consumption. From this point of view a scrubber-equipped reef tank is quite planted.
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The faster the turnover ("flow") is, the more times the water will pass through the scrubber per hour. This gives the algae more nutrients to consume per hour.
I see you do not (want to) understand. Ok, let us go step by step. Do you agree that algae have not time to consume from water significant part (at least 10%) of nutrients per one turn at flow rate proposed in your FAQ?
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No, a scrubber that is 100 cm wide will flow twice as much water as a scrubber 50 cm wide.
If you answer "Yes" on last my question, try to switch off mentally the water flow in one half of you imaginary wide scrubber, separate the water-free part of screen from water-supplied one. Then let it down (you scrubber is vertical) to bottom of the water-supplied screen. Now instead of "wide" scrubber you have "long" one and output water of upper half of it (which contain more than 90% of initial nutrients) is the input water of lower part of the "long" scrubber. And what is difference? Do you see? You have almost the same filtration efficiency at half flow rate. Conception of "long" scrubbers is right while conception of wide scrubbers is a blunder.
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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #69 : 16 Январь 2011, 00:12:04 »
I know what you are saying, but the difference becomes important when you feed liquid coral food, which is high in nutrients. If the turnover is slow, then the nutrients sit in the aquarium for hours before coming into contact with the algae even once. This causes a temporary high spike of nutrients in the aquarium, which can cause cyano to grow.

By having a very high turnover, the pulse of nutrients start passing through the scrubber the instant they are put in the tank, so that the scrubber absorbs the nutrients before the cyano does.

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #70 : 16 Январь 2011, 00:28:44 »
Strange thing. It seems you feed scrubber not reef. ;)
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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #71 : 25 Февраль 2011, 17:32:17 »
Strange thing. It seems you feed scrubber not reef. ;)
SantaMonika привёл убойный аргумент.. ;) Не вижу изъянов..  But: Is it nesessary to feed corals with liquid food - if you have algae scrubber? As far, as I know - Andrew didn't.. (You can see his corals in "Полтонны Океана") Of course, he have not a great number of them.. Yet..  :D But they grow very fast.. in his tank.

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Re:Приветствие от SantaMonica
« Ответ #72 : 28 Февраль 2011, 20:55:34 »
SantaMonika, I have a question. Please explain what the performance of pumps needed to take unilateral screen in a vertical Scrubber? For Two-133 liters per hour per inch of screen length. And for the one-sided?
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